[saw Sacco wearing a cap resembling cap found at murder scene]

Mr. George T. Kelley, Sworn

Q. [By Mr. Williams.] What is your full name?

A. George T. Kelley.

Q. Where do you live?

A. Stoughton, Massachusetts.

Q. What is your business?

A. Superintendent of a shoe factory.

Q. Known as what?

A. 3-K Shoe Company.

Q. Do you know the defendant Nicola Sacco?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you known him?

A. I have known him ten or twelve years.

Q. Was he employed at the 3-K in Stoughton, in the early spring and summer of 1920?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know for how long he had been employed by you there on April 15, 1920? How long prior to that time?

A. I should say possibly six or eight months.

Q. In what capacity was he employed?

A. When he first went to work for us he was employed as an edge trimmer. That is a part of shoe making what they call edge trimming. Then he has worked taking care of the boiler nights, part time, not staying all night, but part time.

Q. What was he doing in April, 1920?

A. Trimming edges.

***

Q. Do you know where he lived'?

***

A. Yes.

Q. Whereabouts, in reference to the factory'?

A. Well, it would be east of the factory, a very short distance.

Q. Is his house in sight of the factory?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know who owned his house?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. My father.

Q. Did you personally live near there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How near did you live to Sacco?

A. Oh, probably one hundred feet, a little more.

Q. That is, your house is on the main road?

A. Yes.

Q. And his house sets back a little?

A. Yes.

Q. And he lived in back of yours, I mean, he did at that time?

A.Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember the week in which Thursday, April 15, 1920, occurred?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is the week of the South Braintree shooting, so called?

A.Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sacco work on Thursday, April 15th?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did he work at the factory at any time that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Had you had some talk prior to that day about his being absent some day during the week?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On what day did you have a talk with Sacco?

A. It was the first part of the week.

Q. Do you remember what day?

A. Well, I wouldn't say for sure. It was either Monday or Tuesday or thereabouts. It was not any later than Tuesday.

Q. Will you tell the jury what talk you had with Sacco at that time?

***

A. *** He said he would like to have one day off that week to go in to see the consul in regard to passports. I told him at that time that if he was caught up he may have the day off. At that time, there was no mention of the day. It went along about Wednesday, and he came to me and said he was going in to-morrow. That would be Thursday, and if possible, would be back again to his work Thursday, to which I said, "Very well." Now, Friday morning I went to him-

Q. Just a minute, please.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say he did not work Thursday?

A. He did not work Thursday, no, sir.

Q. Did he come back any time during the day?

A. No, sir, not at the factory.

Q. That is what I mean.

A. Yes. Do you want me to go about Friday?

Q. Yes.

A. Then Friday morning I went to him early and asked him how he got along and he told me that he was trying to get back Thursday but on account of the crowd that was there waiting for passports, it

was impossible for him to come out so he could get up to work Thursday afternoon. I said, "All right," and there was nothing more then said about why he was not to work or anything about it. I took the excuse as being all right.

Q. Now, was he away from his work any other day or any part of a day that week?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, about Tuesday, did he work all day Tuesday?

A. You mean the previous Tuesday?

Q. Yes. I mean, that would be the 13th.

A. Oh, he was there every day. Now, whether or not he went out in the afternoon, say three or four o'clock, that I couldn't say, but he was to work every day.

Q. What kind of headgear was Sacco accustomed to wear, if you know?

A. There were times that he wore a cap. There was other times he wore a hat.

Q. What kind of a cap have you seen him wearing?

A. I have seen him wear a dark cap.

Q. Could you describe it any more than that?

A. I do not know as I could go into it in detail, outside of knowing that it was a dark cap.

Q. Well, have you in talking it over with anybody, described it in any different terms or more in detail than that?

A. I have said of a salt and pepper design.

Q. How was it in regard to anything else? Can you tell us anything further in regard to it that you recall?

A. No, sir.

Q. What have you seen in regard to this cap, if anything?

A. Nothing more than coming in to work and hanging it up on a nail.

Q. What can you tell us in regard to its condition? As to whether it was old or new clean or dirty?

A. Why, I should say it was naturally dirty.

Q. I wish you would look at what has been introduced for identification as No. 11, and let me ask you, to the best of your recollection, knowledge and belief, if that cap is alike in appearance to the cap that you have described as being worn by Sacco?

A. [Witness examines cap.] The only thing I could say about that cap, Mr. Williams, from hanging up on a nail in the distance, it was similar in color. As far as details are concerned, I could not say it was.

Q. You have been shown that cap before?

A. Yes, sir. Of course, you realize that inside there [indicating] the earlappers, and so forth, I never had any way of examining that cap to see if the ear laps were in there. The only method I had of looking at the cap from observation was if it hung up on a nail somewhere, just passing by and knowing whether it was black, white or green.

Q. Do you know if anything had happened to Sacco's cap by reason of it being hung up on a nail?

A. By reason of what might occur?

Q. Do you know if anything had occurred to his cap by reason of being hung up on a nail?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you examined the lining of this cap?

A. I did.

Q. What do you notice to be the condition of the lining?

A. Torn.

Q. Do you know a man named Orciani?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you first see him to know him?

***

A. I was introduced to him one night, by Mr. Sacco.

Q. Where?

A. In the back of my, or in his yard.

Q. Whose yard?

A. Mr. Sacco's.

Q. Do you know what night it was?

A. Well, it was a Monday or a Tuesday night, previous to the arrest, I think.

Q. Do you know what day the arrest was?

A. No, I do not.

Q. Did you see or notice anything that Orciani had with him that night while he was in Sacco's presence?

***

Q. Did you see anything of a motorcycle that night?

A. Yes, sir.

***

Q. Did Sacco say anything about it?

***

A. He made no comment on the motorcycle until I asked him.

***

Q. Asked who?

A. Sacco. On account of its being a cool night, on account of riding in a motorcycle I asked him why he didn't have an overcoat. He said he did not intend to ride home with it, but he went to see his friend, who brought him home in the motorcycle.

Q. Do you know to whom he was referring when he said "his friend" ?

A. Orciani.

Q. Was Orciani there at the time?

A. Yes, sir, he was there. He introduced me to him.

Q. Did you see that motorcycle at or around the factory or at or around Sacco's house before Sacco's arrest? Let me ask you, first, was there anything about the motorcycle, was there any way you could, that you can describe that particular motorcycle, did it have any attachments to it by which you can describe it?

A. Only a side car.

***

Q. You saw it at the defendant Sacco's house?

A. Yes.

Q. It had a side car. Do you know what color the motorcycle was?

A. Red.

Q. Did you see a red motorcycle with a side car at Sacco's house again before Sacco's arrest?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. The day previous, 1 would say.

Q. The day previous to what?

A. Of his arrest.

Q. What day of the week was that?

A. That would be Tuesday or Wednesday as I recollect it now. Mr. Williams, of course, I am not absolutely sure on days, you understand, but it was the early part of the week that that motorcycle was there.

Q. Now, do you recall the day of the week that Sacco was arrested?

A. No, sir.

Q. Could your recollection be refreshed by my stating the day the testimony shows he was arrested? A. Yes.

Q. It is agreed here he was arrested on Wednesday, the 5th of May, late in the evening.

A. Yes.

Q. Now, does that help you to recall the time you saw that motorcycle standing there?

A. 1 should say that motorcycle, to the best of my recollection, was there Wednesday afternoon.

Q. Do you know how long it was there that afternoon?

A. The greater part of the afternoon. 1 did not see it leaving the yard.

Q. What was the last you saw of it that afternoon, Mr. Kelley?

***

A. About seven o'clock in the evening.

Q. Did you get the number of it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was it?

A. 861.

Q. How many times did you see that motorcycle there?

A. Twice, possibly.

Q. And have you told us about those two times?

A. I have answered one question in regard to the date I saw the motorcycle. Yes, I have, the time of being introduced to him and also the date of the motorcycle being there.

Q. That is, the date, you say, to the best of your recollection, was Wednesday?

A. Yes.

Q. Any other time you seen the motorcycle there?

A. I have seen it several times, but I couldn't say what dates they were.

Q. *** Did you ever get on or in the motorcycle yourself?

A. Yes, Sir.

Q. When was that?

A. That was the night I was introduced to him.

Q. To whom?

A. Orciani. I think I said it was a Tuesday, didn't I?

Q. I think you did.

A. Yes.

Q. Either Monday or Tuesday?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever noticed anybody else there with Sacco at the time the motorcycle was there?

A. No, sir.

MR. WILLIAMS. If your Honor please, I offer this cap in evidence. It has been marked for identification, and I now offer it as an exhibit.

***

Q. Mr. Kelley, according to your best judgment, is the cap I show you alike in appearance to the cap worn by Sacco?

A. In color only.

THE COURT. That is not responsive to the question. I wish you would answer it, if you can.

THE WITNESS. I can't answer it when I don't know right down in my heart that that is the cap.

THE COURT. I don't want you to. I want you should answer according to what is in your heart.

THE WITNESS. General appearance, that is all I can say. I never saw that cap so close in my life as I do now.

***

Q. In its general appearance, is it the same?

A. Yes.

***

[The cap is admitted in evidence and marked "Exhibit 29."]

MR. WILLIAMS. [Passing Exhibit 29 to the jury.] Notice the outside and inside. You may inquire.

Cross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.] Well, you said you never saw this cap before?

A. I did not say any such thing.

MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Turn back to his evidence.

[Portions of witness's previous testimony is read.]

Q. How long had this fellow worked for you? Let us see, are you in company with your father?

A. Yes.

Q. And you hired him or your father?

A. I hired him.

Q. How long do you say he had been working for you? I think you said six or seven months. I do not know as I understood you.

A. That was previous to this April 15, 1920.

Q. Wasn't he working there in 1918? Didn't he go to work for your firm in 1918?

A. Possibly. We have records of it, but I am not familiar at this time with the exact year in which he was hired. We have records of it, but

Q. You have not consulted them now, at this time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then you are not in position to say whether,-really, you don't mean he worked six or seven months or whether he worked twenty or twenty-four months, really?

A. No, not,-no exact date, I meant, no.

Q. I see. What is your part of the business there?

A. Superintending the factory.

Q. The making, the cutting and stitching, everything?

A. The whole business.

Q. You have an individual foreman in each room, do you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Is your work mostly in the office and the other men under you?

A. No, sir. In the factory. I have the factory.

Q. As superintendent, what in particular do you have to do with the lasters?

A. It is my duty to see that the shoes are lasted correctly.

Q. You go through and "crown" the work?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that true in the sole leather room, also?

A. Yes. From the cutting room to the packing room.

Q. So that you are about the factory all the time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Generally amongst the help?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, at one time, Sacco worked there, as you said, something as a watchman, or something?

A. Yes, sir. Nightwatchman.

Q. When was it he was employed as night watchman, do you recall?

A. I do not know the year, no, sir.

Q. Well, was it summer or winter time?

A. It was winter. It was in the winter.

Q. Now, this unfortunate affair occurred along in April, 1920. Was it the winter of 1919 and 1920 that he worked as watchman at your factory or the winter before?

A. I am of the opinion it was the winter before.

Q. That recalls to your mind, does it not, he worked there more than six or seven months?

A. Yes. Now that I recall that, yes.

Q. I see. Now, coming for a minute to the request that he made on the week of April 15th-

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know that his mother, at that time, did you learn that his mother had recently died in Italy?

A. Yes.

***

Q. Kindly tell us what you knew from Sacco about that.

A. You mean, in regard to his mother?

Q. Yes.

A. I understood that his mother died. *** He told me that his mother had died, that he was very

sorry to think that he wasn't at home when she died, that they had wanted him to come home previous to her death and that he thought now that as long as he had an opportunity, that he would go home while his father was still alive and on that account that was the reason that he gave me for

going home at that particular time that he had tried to make arrangements for, to see his father while he was alive.

Q. Recalling that situation and your conversation with him at that time, do you recall his stating that he had received a communication at his mother's death, immediately following his father was very poorly?

A. Yes, in fact, he said it that day he got the communication.

Q. The day he received the communication of his mother's death, he was so overcome that he did not work, did he?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, please tell us when that was with reference to,-how long before April 15th was that?

A. I couldn't tell you.

Q. Can't you approximate it, Mr. Kelley, somewhere?

A. Oh, I should say as a rough guess, possibly two or three months, and that is only guess work.

Q. Did you see a letter that arrived?

A. No, sir. That is, I don't recall of him showing me. I don't know what object he would have to

show it to me, but I can't say I didn't.

Q. Well, again placing your mind on dates and times as to when he told you his mother had died, go back to the last week in March.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall whether or not that wasn't the,-during that week that he did not work on account of his mother's death, receiving the news of his mother's death?

A. I couldn't say to be positive that it was exactly those dates.

Q. Oh, did you mean that his mother had died two or three months before or the time when he received notice of his mother's death? Which did you mean?

A. I was trying to think it was the time he received notice of his mother's death, that it was that time I speak of, but I am not sure.

Q. Would the records of the factory, do you think, or would they not, show the day he did not work on account of this news?

A. No, the records would not show it.

Q. That wouldn't help us.

A. No. It is piece work. They do not keep a piece work record.

Q. But did he not, -you learned, did you not, he got his passport and showed it to you, didn't he?

A. I did not see the passport, no, sir.

Q. Didn't you have some talk with him about the passport?

A. In regard to photographs and passports, too, yes.

***

Q. If this conversation that you have already gone into, if anything was said in regard to his photograph or his passport, please state it.

A. Not at that time. The conversation with regard to passports and the photographs was at the time that I met him and Orciani, you understand.

Q. That was in the week of April 15th. Now, May,-when was that?

A. That was

Q. How long before his arrest was it that he had that talk with you?

A. Well, it wasn't very,-it wasn't but a few days.

Q. Without giving the conversation, I ask you, did he show you a photograph?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A photograph of whom?

A. Of him and his wife and child.

***

Q. Did he, as a fact, have a conversation with you about this photograph? You may answer that yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. At the time when he had that conversation with you, did he then have his passport?

A. No, sir.

Q. As a fact, did he have a conversation with you about his passport?

***

A. Yes, we have had,-we have talked about them, yes, sir.

***

Q. About when was it he spoke with you last about passports?

A.The Friday morning previous to the shooting. That was the last time I heard from it,-following the shooting, that Friday morning following that Thursday, you know, of the South Braintree racket.

Q. Then the Friday following the shooting,-if the shooting was Thursday, which we agree,-then on Friday he spoke to you about his passport.

A. Yes. There had been some conversation previous to that, you know, leading up to his getting away for that Thursday.

Q. Now, bringing your mind back to the condition of work at the factory, you have testified about your conversation with him about his getting away.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall the fact that he had a fellow help him and that he reported to you or some one in your factory wondering how far he had got ahead, that he had forty-eight dozen finished,-if I have got it right?

A. Yes, well

Q. Do you recall that?

A. I do not recall that, no, sir. But I do know that his work was satisfactory so that he could get away.

Q. Then he had it all arranged that his work was done up so close-

A. Yes.

Q. -Wednesday night that it did not inconvenience you, his going away Thursday?

A. That is right.

Q. And you understood Thursday he was going to Boston to get this photograph and going to try to get his passport?

A. Yes.

Q. From his conversation with you?

A. Yes.

Q. And he told you Friday morning he had been to Boston?

A. Yes.

***

Q. Now, Friday morning he told you why it was that he did not get out Thursday early enough to come in and go to work?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ask him or did he tell you on what train he came out from Boston Thursday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, preparatory to going home had he got through work on May 5th, the day of his arrest, or not?

A. Well, he was not in our employ, as I recollect it now.

Q. On the day of his arrest, he was not in your employ?

A. No. ***

Q. What day, take your days back now, the day of his arrest, how long back from that was it he got through?

A. It could not have been much more than a week.

Q. Well, was it more than three days?

A. I could not say that and be positive. No, I could not say.

Q. Your records would show that?

A. They would show, I think he records would show when he left our factory. Still, I wouldn't be sure about that.

Q. Now, Mr. Sacco was an edge trimmer at the time of his last work for your factory, wasn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. And where used he to hang his cap with reference to where he worked?

A. Pretty much of the time,-that is, he was facing south, and his post with a nail on it would be directly in back of him.

Q. How many help do you employ?

A. When we are busy, employ about one hundred and twenty-five.

Q. When you were going the way you were last April or May, how many did you employ?

A. About 185.

Q. Could you tell us the number of, how many of those 185 wore caps?

A. No, sir.

Q. Could you tell how many wore checked caps?

A. No, sir.

Q. How many wore plaid caps?

A. No.

Q. How many wore caps with checks in them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Gray caps, derby or soft hat?

A. I couldn't specify, no, sir, I couldn't.

Q. All you know about it,-as a matter of fact, didn't Sacco have two caps?

A. I was of the opinion that he did.

Q. Yes. Now, what did the other one look like?

A. Well, there is a question on that. You see

Q. I want the answer. I don't want the question.

A. Well, I don't know.

Q. Now, he wore that other cap to the shop, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, there hasn't anyone shown you the other one, is there, or anything that looked like it? This is the only one you have seen of the two he wore?

A. Why, yes.

Q. Purporting to be like it?

A. Yes.

Q. And you do not know what the other one looked like, do you?

A. I do now.

Q. I thought you didn't a minute ago?

A. Well, that is only from hearsay.

Q. Hearsay?

A. It isn't anything I remember. It is what my memory has been refreshed on.

Q. On what?

A. The looks of the cap.

Q. Which cap?

A. The other cap you speak of or even that one [indicating].

Q. The other one is the one I want. Tell us what the other cap looked like if you remember.

A. I do not remember what it did look like.

Q. Then we understand each other. So this other cap which he wore in the factory, you do not remember what that looked like?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember which cap he was wearing along last April?

A. No, no, sir.

***

Q. You do not remember which cap he was wearing then?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is that the photograph he showed you [handing photograph to the witness]?

A. I think the one that was shown me was smaller. It was a smaller affair here.

Q. Was it that grouping,-his wife, and boy, or in a smaller photograph?

A. I think so.

***

[Mr. McAnarney shows picture to the jury.]

Q. Now, let us see, how long did this man Sacco act as night watchman there at the factory?

A. What we call one winter. That would be cold weather.

Q. Did you have any conversation with Sacco in reference to his procuring and having a gun with him while he was acting as watchman?

***

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether your father did or not, in your presence?

A. No.

Q. You know nothing of that?

A. I knew he had one.

Q. Yes. You know the occasion of his getting one?

A. No.

***

Q. You knew he had one?

A. I knew he had one.

***

Q. If in connection with your business there you knew Sacco had a gun, what was the fact,-did you or did you not know in connection with his business and your business there that Sacco had a gun?

***

A. I never knew he had a gun for the use of protecting the factory.

Q. I believe you said something about you knew he had a revolver or a gun?

A. But I did not know he was using it doing his duty. That is what I am getting at.

***

Q. I call your attention to this sheet of paper [showing to the witness] and ask you to recognize the handwriting?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is whose handwriting?

A. My sister's,-Margaret's.

Q. Your sister. And what does she do at the factory?

A. She has charge of the payroll.

Q. Will you kindly glance through that and see what it is, please.

A. It is a record of our pay roll book of the amounts that are made by Sacco from November 9, 1918, until May 1st.

Q. What year?

A. Now, let us see,-1920.

Q. Yes. Now, would you run down each,-is that by the month or by the week, please?

A. That is by the week, six days a week.

Q. Now, would you glance through that and tell us how steady he worked, or, put it the other way: during that entire time, what time was he away from work, if you can get it easier that way, rather than telling us the days he did work?

A. Well, from previous talk we have had in regard to this, the only time that he was out was the week of Christmas of 1920.

***

Q. Yes. Well, he was out some days, you say, at Christmas?

A. Yes.

Q. How many out? Does it not say there? If you glance at it, won't you see it?

A. There is a week or more, I should say.

Q. Give us the time he was out at Christmas.

A. The records show here, the last week was put in the 27th of December, 1919, and then there wasn't anything again until

***

Q. But that is your sister's handwriting?

A. Yes.

Q. You heard it talked over?

A. Yes.

***

Q. You knew that that was compiled?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you take part in the getting of it up?

A. No.

Q. Done by your sister?

A. Yes.

***

Q. Anything you want to say about your sister's knowledge of the work?

A. I would say it would be practically impossible for us to determine through our system of keeping records of piece help what days they are in or what days they are out. If one is out a complete week we would have a record of that, but three or four days, why, it would simply show by a smaller week's pay of the Saturday previous to him putting in his coupons.

***

Q. When he was acting as night watchman, did he do any other, did he have any other duties?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What?

A. Trimming edges in the daytime.

Q. So that he worked in the daytime trimming edges and nights as night watchman?

A. Half the night, yes, sir.

Q. Covering how long a period?

A. That whole winter.

Q. That winter of 1918 and 1919?

A. Yes.

Q. Or, pardon me, 1919 and 1920?

A. Well, I should say it was 1918 and 1919.

Q. That is not clear in your mind, is it?

A. No, without looking it up.

Q. Now, anything further he told you at that conversation? I wish you would kindly place your mind back, if you can, to the conversation which you have told us about the death of his mother and the condition of his father and the passport and photograph. Have you now told us all he said there that you can recall?

A. Well, pretty much.

Q. Was there anything said by him to you with reference to how soon he could get through and not inconvenience you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, tell us about that.

***

A. It was in regard to sailings of the vessel, as I understand it now. There was times when it was

easier to go than others, and at that particular sailing, whatever the date was, the passport was made out, was the most convenient for him to go. I told him that I would like to have him stay. He was a good workman and I would like to have him stay, but on account of his father being very ill and his mother having died, he insisted that if it did not inconvenience me a great deal he would like to go on that date, and that to still make it not inconvenience me any he would stay and work until I got a man to take his place, which I did, and he left our employ.

Q. May first?

A. About that, I should say.

***

Q. Place yourself back, Mr. Kelley, to the day Sacco went to Boston, April 15th. Do you recall whether or not he had got any other man in to help him out?

MR. KATZMANN. One moment. I object, if your Honor please.

THE COURT. You assume he went to Boston.

***

Q. Does that recall to your mind that three or four days before that he got another fellow in to help out the work and get it up ahead so he could go?

A. Yes.

Q. It does?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, having that in mind, Mr. Kelley, is it not the fact that Sacco told you he would go, take the day off, as soon as he got that man broke in so that he could help out? Is that the way that it came about that he went in on this day?

***

A. I can't recollect any particular conversation. Only I do know that it was the understanding with him and I that the work should be caught up. Now, I do not say that he did not say it. The only thing is I do not recall it.

Q. Very well. That is fair enough. How many days had he had this fellow breaking him in before he took his day off and went to get his passport, as you told us?

A. I should say a couple of weeks.

Q. Now, after Sacco got through, did that man continue on as an edge trimmer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Sacco broke him in, did he not?

A. Yes. Well, he was somewhat of a trimmer before he came to work.

Q. Not in the class of Sacco was he, as a workman?

A. No.

Q. Sacco instructed him?

A. Yes.

Q. And he eventually took Sacco's place?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, recalling to your mind, did not Sacco tell you that he wouldn't take the day off until he got this man so he could do the work?

A. I couldn't say as to that, no. The understanding was that the work would be caught up or he would not go.

Q. I see.

A. And when it was caught up, I was willing that he should go.

***

Q. When he got the work caught up, he took that day?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what train or what car or by what way or time he left Stoughton that morning of the day he said he was going to Boston?

A. No, sir.

***

Q. I believe I have asked you if you knew what time he arrived back in Stoughton?

A. Yes. Well, I don't know that.

***

Q. May I ask this question predicated on this time sheet: does that refresh your recollection as to how steady Mr. Sacco worked?

***

A. The position he held was one,-what they call a "one-man job." If he was out, the work blocked, see. You understand what I mean?

Q. Yes.

A. Now, he was a very steady worker. He worked very steady from seven in the morning until quitting time at night and was on the job every day that you could expect any healthy man to work. There was times when he was two or three hours late on account of sickness, but outside of his getting through and talking of going to the old country, he was absolutely on the job every day.

MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That is all.

Redirect Examination

Q. [By Mr. Williams.] Do you recall any other day of his being out before this time during the year 1920.

***

A. Yes.

Q. The next day he was out was the 15th day of April?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any other day that year, Mr. Kelley, before that time?

A. Yes. I think he was out one day previous to that.

Q. And when?

A. It wasn't very,-probably a week.

Q. About the week before?

A. I think so. Still, now, I am not

Q. I am just asking for your recollection. You said you could tell.

A. I have no record of it here. It is just simply my memory.

Q. What makes you recall he was out about a week before?

A. Simply because there was some conversation about leaving one day a week or half a day and working along keeping up the work until I got a man to take his place. He and I had an agreement he should take and get out as long as the work was kept up, and if my memory serves me right, after that conversation took place, why, I think he was out a day previous to that Thursday.

Q. That was as far as you recall about him before?

A. Yes.

Q. And the last time he was before that, he was out was during the Christmas week of 1919?

A. Yes.

Q. He was your nearest neighbor, was he?

A. Yes.

MR. WILLIAMS. That is all.

Re-Cross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.] Do you recall whether anything was said about making arrangements for disposing of his goods or anything in that conversation along in April, or, I mean, May 5th?

***

A. I think there was something said about disposing of the stuff.

***

Q. You have spoken about his being out, you think, some week before, one day some week before this time when he got the day off to go to Boston?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in connection with his being out that day, was there anything said about disposing of his property?

A. No.

***

Q. Mr. Kelley, do you recall the fact whether or not Sacco was sick at Christmas in 1919?

A. That was the reason I understood why he was out.

Q. He lived in the next house to you, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. Don't you know he was ill?

A. Yes.

MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That is all.

Redirect Examination

Q. [By Mr. Williams.] What you learned about his family history and the sickness of his relatives and his own sickness, was based on what he told you, is it not?

A. *** That is not clear.

Q. Pardon me. I want it to be clear. I mean what you have stated in regard to the death of one or more of his relatives-

A. Yes.

Q. -the illness of his other relatives and the reason for getting passports are based on what he told you?

A. Yes, yes.

Re-Cross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.] Was your attention called to a letter by Sacco or his wife?

A. Yes.

[Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney shows letter to Mr. Katzmann.]

***

A. [Witness examines letter.]

***

Q. Whether or not that letter was shown to you by Mr. Sacco prior to his arrest?

A. Yes. As I recollect it, yes.

***

Q. Now, having in mind the defendant's arrest, how near to that day was that letter shown you?

A. That I couldn't say.

Q. I do not know as you noticed the date of the letter?

A. No, I did not.

***

Q. Were you shown any other letter purporting to,-well, were you shown any other letter by Sacco other than this one?

A. I wasn't shown any letter, no, but I was told the contents of some that were received.

Q. Well, that wasn't my question.

A. I see.

Q. You could not assist us how near the date of May 5th- and that is the day he was arrested-that this was shown you?

A. No.

Q. You could not help us?

A. I could not. No good on dates.

***

July 1, 1921

George Thomas Kelley, Recalled

Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.] You were called, Mr. Kelley, in the first of this case, by the Government and sworn and testified?

A. Yes.

Q. You are one of the sons of Mr. Michael Kelley who runs the 3-K factory?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I direct your attention to the morning of the 16th of April.

Whether or not Mr. Sacco was working that morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What hour did you get to the factory?

A. Approximately at seven o'clock a. m.

Q. From your observation of his work, are you able to state whether or not he had been working before you got there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. From the amount of work he had performed, what is your judgment as to how long he had been working when you got there?

A. I should place it at three quarters or possibly an hour.

***

Cross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] On the 16th of April, did the defendant Sacco tell you that he was detained in the consul's office, and there was so many ahead of him that it was too late for him to get the noon train when he left the Italian consul's office?

***

A. Yes, sir.

***

George T. Kelley, Recalled

Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.] Mr. Kelley, I show you Exhibit 29 in the record and Exhibit 27, and ask you to examine both caps and see which appears more like the cap which you saw in your factory as being the one that Sacco used to wear, which appears more like the cap?

A. [Witness examines cap, hanging one of the caps on a hook on the door and leaves the witness stand to look at it.]

Q. Which cap appears more like the one you saw Sacco have?

A. If this cap here [indicating] was just a shade dirtier, I should say that would look more like it than it would be by hanging that one up there and looking at it. The cap I had reference to wasn't as dark as this particular cap [indicating], and this one [indicating] is just a hair lighter, and I would say offhand, that it looked, to the best of my recollection now, this one [indicating] is my idea of a salt and pepper if it was a little bit soiled. You understand?

Q. You think Nick's hat was somewhat soiled?

A. I was of the opinion it had been used a little bit more than that. That is, through natural wear.

Q. I call your attention to this place on it.

A. Yes. Well, that is the idea there, that smut.

Q. Well, taking the characteristics of the two caps, in your honest judgment, which appears more like the cap you used to see at your factory this one [indicating] or that one [indicating]?

A. Well, in general appearance, to the best of my recollection, if that [indicating] was a little bit

darker, I should say.

Q. Take it as it is.

A. I would give that cap there [indicating] the preference.

MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. The witness indicates cap Exhibit 27.

Q. This [indicating] you say is your idea of what you meant by a pepper and salt?

A. Not exactly, Mr. McAnarney.

Q. I understood you to say something. I did not quite get you.

A. Along that order, but that is not what I would term a salt and pepper cap, but that was my idea when I was speaking.

Q. I see. Now, taking this cap in its color as you looked at it and looked at the other one, is it still your judgment this [indicating] is more like the cap that Nick wore and had in your factory?

A. Yes.

***

Q. Well, I have understood you to say this cap, No. 27, more resembles the cap you had in mind as being Nick's cap?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you at some time before this matter of April and May, sometime earlier in the year, did you have a conversation with Nick Sacco -I call him "Nick"-

A. Yes.

Q. And about when was that?

***

A. Previous to April 15th, do I understand you?

Q. Yes, about when?

A. Sometime

Q. Well, I am not holding you down to days or weeks.

A. Oh, it may have been three or four or five months, five months, say, four months.

Q. And in that conversation or at that time, as a fact, did you speak to him with reference to his activities in the Radical movement?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time did you speak to him with reference to your having been informed that he was being investigated?

A. Yes, sir.

***

Q. Now, I don't ask you what he said. Yes, I will ask you this question. You may reply yes or no. Did he answer you? Did he make a statement to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And when he made that statement, did he do anything?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he do? I don't ask you what he said, but what did he do?

***

A. He placed his right hand over his heart and said, "George"

Q. Wait. I can't ask what he said. He made a statement. Placed his right hand over his heart and made a statement.

A. Yes.

MR. KATZMANN. That is all.

Cross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] Good morning.

A. Good morning, Mr. Katzmann.

Q. Mr. Kelley, you and Mr. Sacco have had the good fortune to be friends, haven't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you and Mr. Sacco, during the two or three years that he lived near the 3-K factory, were intimate friends, were you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it not the fact that you were over in his house a great many times?

A. I don't understand what you mean by "a great many."

***

Q. Frequently?

A. Frequently, yes.

Q. Is it the fact frequently he had been in your house?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were fond of him, weren't you, as man to man?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Kelley, do you remember when the cap was shown to you here in the courtroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you testified the first time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say to the jury in response to this question from Mr. Williams to you, "What kind of a head gear did he wear?" and your answer was, "At times a cap and at other times a hat." Did you say that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you say you had seen him wear a dark cap?

A. I might have.

Q. Well, didn't you? I mean,-now, let me make sure you understand. I think you testified twice before. I mean the first time when the cap was shown to you in the courtroom.

A. Yes.

Q. Didn't you then say you had seen him wear a dark cap?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that a dark, cap, identification Exhibit 27? Is that a dark cap, Mr. Kelley?

A. No.

Q. Is that [indicating] a dark cap?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you testify, "I had said it was of a salt and pepper design?

A. Yes.

Q. Is Exhibit 27 for identification salt and pepper?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is Exhibit 29 salt and pepper?

A. No, sir.

Q. That isn't of salt and pepper design?

A. It isn't, to my recollection of salt and pepper.

Q. Then when you were testifying when the cap was shown to you here, you had something else in mind besides that design as being salt and pepper?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the fact?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember when Mr. Williams offered the cap in evidence that there was objection?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you remember that Mr. Williams framed some questions and finally the Court asked you this question: "Whether, according to your best judgment, the cap I now show you is like the cap Sacco wore?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what you said to that?

A. I said "Yes."

Q. Didn't you say "in color only"?

A. Yes.

Q. "And in its general appearance the cap is the same." Didn't you say that?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any similarity whatever, Mr. Kelley, between that light cap that is on your right and the dark cap that is on your left?

A. There is no similarity, but, Mr. Katzmann, may I explain?

Q. That is the only question I asked you, if there is. The question is, Mr. Kelley, is there any similarity between those two caps?

A. No.

Q. And the one that was shown you in the courtroom was the dark cap, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

MR. KATZ MANN. That is all.

Redirect Examination

Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.] *** Taking the two caps, your answers with reference to both, is there any explanation you want to make with reference to your testimony about either one of those caps?

A. Either one of those caps does not come up to my idea of salt and pepper, either one of them.

Q. Kindly explain what you mean.

A. The cap I had reference to as salt and pepper in my testimony was a heavier, fuzzier material with black, white, green set right out there prominent, and soiled, dark in color from being soiled.

MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I think that is all I wanted to ask you,

***

Recross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] When you testified here in the court room, Mr. Kelley, you had that dark cap before you, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You examined it with care, didn't you, Mr. Kelley, before you testified?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you realize the importance of your testimony in regard to that cap?

A. In the truth only.

Q. Of course, in the truth. I mean, did you realize the importance if your testimony identified that cap as Sacco's cap?

A. I did not think I had identified it, Mr. Katzmann.

Q. I said if you identified it did you realize the importance when you were testifying about the cap?

A. Yes.

Q. In giving your testimony initially, Mr. Kelley, as to the cap, were you in any sense moved by fear?

***

A. No.

Q. Were you in any sense moved by affection and regard?

***

A. I said "No."

***

Q. Mr. Kelley, do you remember a week or so before the opening of the trial, having a conversation with Officers Stewart and Brouillard?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the time did they ask you to describe Sacco's cap without showing you a cap?

A. Yes.

Q. Then after you had described a cap which you had seen the defendant Sacco wear, did they produce that dark cap?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you then say to them, "Well, I described it pretty well, didn't I?"

A. Yes, sir.

MR. KATZMANN. [To the jury.] I just want you gentlemen to hear this question. I don't want to speak it out loud. The reason will be obvious.

Q. Did you then say to them,-did they say to you, "Is that Sacco's cap?" referring to the dark cap?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you then say, "I have my opinion about the cap, but I don't want to get a bomb up my ass." Did you then say that? "I have my opinion about the cap, but I don't want to bomb up my ass." Did you then say that to those officers?

A. I might have.

***

Q. Didn't you, Mr. Kelley?

A. Sometime during the conversation, but not then.

Q. Sometime during the conversation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. They asked you to give a definite answer, "Is it or is it not his cap?"

A. Yes, they asked me.

Q. Didn't you reply on each occasion, "I have my opinion about the cap, but I don't want to get a bomb up my ass"?

A. That part I can't remember.

Q. Do you say you did not say that?

A. I said the last part there. I might have said it when they drove off, but not at the time when they

showed me the cap.

Q. Was that in reference to the cap?

A. Yes.

***

Redirect Examination

***

Q. [By Mr. Moore.] Mr. KeIley, at the time of the conclusion of your testimony as a government witness, I believe, and while you were awaiting recall, I believe, as a witness, did you calI the attention of someone representing the defense to a particular cap?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That you had seen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was that?

A. In the anteroom, in the library.

Q. Did you at the time,-how did you happen to be out in the anteroom?

A. I was just waiting to be caIled, trotting back and forth for exercise.

***

Q. You were there alone, were you, or with some one?

A. Alone.

Q. Where did you see the cap that you caIled the attention of Counsel to later?

***

A. On the table.

***

Q. In the anteroom to the library?

A. Yes.

***

Q. Is this the cap that you directed attention to at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

***

Q. What did you mean by a pepper and salt cap when you testified in this case?

***

A. Just what you see here [indicating]. That is my idea of salt and pepper.

Q. You mean that you picked up that hat in the anteroom without knowing its owner, by yourself, brought it to counsel and stated that that is what you had meant by a pepper and salt cap?

***

A. Yes, sir.

***

[The cap is marked as "Exhibit 44 for identification.]

***

Q. I now ask you as to how this cap, Exhibit 44, compares in your mind with the cap that you remember as the cap belonging to the defendant Sacco?

A. Ideal.

Q. What is that?

A. Ideal. That is the nearest thing I have seen to it, to my recollection, if it was a shade darker. The substance is just what I recall, to the best of my recollection, the mixture of the goods. If that was a darker, soiled cap, that is just what is my ideal of the cap that I had in my mind, absolutely.

***

Q. Was there any time during the month of April, 1920, when Sacco was out of the factory any other day, other than April 15th, to the best of your recollection?

A. Yes.

Q. Any other day out the entire day other than April 15th?

A. I could not be sure.

Q. Well?

A. To the best of my recollection I would say yes.

Q. What date?

A. I don't know.

Q. Out the entire day?

A. Yes. I could explain the situation if permitted.

***

Recross-Examination

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] Mr. Kelley, you made some-you have testified so many times it may be difficult to put in words just the time we are now talking about, but if you will be patient-

A. We will try to.

Q. When you first were called this morning and this cap, referring to identification Exhibit 27, was shown to you,-take it in your hands. Perhaps it would make it easier.

A. Yes.

Q. [Mr. Katzmann hands cap to the witness.] Did you say "If that cap were just a shade darker I would say it looked more like the cap I saw in the shop"?

A. Yes, sir.

***

Q. Is this cap, which is identification Exhibit No. 44, a shade darker than that one [indicating]?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Quite a good deal of a shade darker, isn't it"?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you have just said, haven't you, to Mr. Moore, "It must be darker still to look like Sacco's cap," haven't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Isn't that [indicating] the next shade darker than that shade [indicating]? Isn't it?

***

A. I don't know. [Witness hangs cap on door.] It isn't.

***


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